tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1780629013428444572.post5718491703048681571..comments2023-10-25T11:26:59.760+01:00Comments on Musings of a Quaker Witch (Pagan Quaker): Ritual: the new animal sacrificeMorganhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05201286586062722169noreply@blogger.comBlogger33125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1780629013428444572.post-62693193516958806912010-05-12T02:43:06.602+01:002010-05-12T02:43:06.602+01:00Staśa, if I click on your keyword “Paganisms”, whi...Staśa, if I click on your keyword “Paganisms”, which seems to be the word under which you file all your postings relating to that matter, I see it’s less than a month since you posted an essay to this blog titled “A quintessential Pagan Quaker ritual - ?” (Second sentence: “A few days later, in passing, I happened to mention on Facebook that I’m doing Beltane planning......”)<br><br>I don’t Marshall Massey (Iowa YM [C])http://journal.earthwitness.org/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1780629013428444572.post-87469938999944345862010-05-12T03:16:55.298+01:002010-05-12T03:16:55.298+01:00Marshall, your comment, in many ways, demonstrates...Marshall, your comment, in many ways, demonstrates exactly the limitations in thinking and perception I'm talking about. So, thank you. <br><br>#1: Beltane planning: If you were doing Christmas planning, or Easter planning, would that by definition mean you were planning ritual? Was my Beltane potluck a ritual? <br><br>If I had done a May Pole at my (Quaker) alma mater's celebration, staśahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05201286586062722169noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1780629013428444572.post-10224962415912961852010-05-12T03:32:30.089+01:002010-05-12T03:32:30.089+01:00p.s. Marshall, looking over the list of posts wit...p.s. Marshall, looking over the list of posts with the tag "Paganisms" for the last year, we see: <br><br>- this post<br><br>- a query about what folks want to know about Pagan Quakers<br><br>- someone else's question about "quintessential Quaker Pagan ritual," which answer mentions Pagan ritual, Quaker ritual, Christian Quaker ritual, and "ritual I never do"<staśahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05201286586062722169noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1780629013428444572.post-44121554630725088142010-05-12T03:46:40.447+01:002010-05-12T03:46:40.447+01:00I don't entirely understand the problem some q...I don't entirely understand the problem some quakes have with ritual - when many things we do have a ritual element, even the way we conduct worship and business. Now, an objection to _dead_ ritual, or thoughtless ritual, or practice done by rote (even Quaker practice done by rote) without a sense of leading or presence - that is a sensible objection. But then, I find ritual and symbol Mary Ellenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06476814211173076515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1780629013428444572.post-12462116755526471052010-05-12T04:10:53.174+01:002010-05-12T04:10:53.174+01:00It's all those B movies.It's all those B movies.Stevehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06522611419738049478noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1780629013428444572.post-14195097156412813712010-05-12T04:13:05.389+01:002010-05-12T04:13:05.389+01:00There's a difference between performing ritual...There's a difference between performing ritual and considering paganism a ritualistic religion. <br><br>Think of it like Catholicism - ritual is important to the ritual, but one *can* be Catholic without performing the weekly ritual. <br><br>I perform ritual on occasion, for big holidays when I have a group (or if the holiday is important enough I do it alone), but I'm not a ritualisticLaurahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13370212755653960169noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1780629013428444572.post-60951172846535334712010-05-12T04:29:17.918+01:002010-05-12T04:29:17.918+01:00you, my friend, are awesome. I appreciate that the...you, my friend, are awesome. I appreciate that there is so much meaningful content that speaks to me in this post, even though i'm not pagan. (stereotypes, assumptions vs. lived experiences, accepting other people's lives as a witness).<br><br>thanks for ranting.Kody Gabrielhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06854767742535483301noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1780629013428444572.post-75821351574673592822010-05-12T04:33:17.951+01:002010-05-12T04:33:17.951+01:00Stasa - I have to say that this isn't "cl...Stasa - I have to say that this isn't "clicking" for me either. I totally see Marshall's point. He's not saying that all you ever write about is ritual, just that you mention it a LOT, especially in relation to paganism, so it's confusing.<br><br>My sense is that this is something that's really bugging you, and perhaps you are too emotional about it just now to earthfreak (Pam)http://www.blogger.com/profile/01439718927967964939noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1780629013428444572.post-2332534517669330762010-05-12T10:53:57.141+01:002010-05-12T10:53:57.141+01:00Interesting - I'm particularly interested in t...Interesting - I'm particularly interested in the issue around Quakerism and ritual. I think it all comes down to our defination of ritual - I think we Quakers (unprogrammed) do have ritual - there is the ritual of shaking hands after meeting, the ritual of greeting strangers, of spoken and then unspoken ministry. But I really hear your frustration at dealing with assumptions of others - it&#bethhttp://practicalmysticmusings.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1780629013428444572.post-29604134278893846042010-05-12T13:57:08.789+01:002010-05-12T13:57:08.789+01:00How good to have such thoughtful responses to my c...How good to have such thoughtful responses to my comment! Thank you, Stasa and Laura, for your efforts to educate me.<br><br>Stasa, you write, “If you were doing Christmas planning, or Easter planning, would that by definition mean you were planning ritual? Was my Beltane potluck a ritual?” Let me just respond by pointing to the very next sentence you wrote, after the one I quoted in my Marshall Masseyhttp://journal.earthwitness.org/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1780629013428444572.post-3145959154391736232010-05-12T15:47:30.772+01:002010-05-12T15:47:30.772+01:00To take a completely different tack, the most info...To take a completely different tack, the most information I have about animal sacrifice is from Judeo-Christian history, not pagan (because that's the history I know better, not because of any sort of ratio of who practiced what). And from what I know, animal sacrifice was a sanctifying, sacred activity, thus the word used is <i>sacr</i>-ifice, not "slaughter" or "harvest."Kathleenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08415530618060703848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1780629013428444572.post-18759722020558903812010-05-12T16:10:09.832+01:002010-05-12T16:10:09.832+01:00@Marshall - that is completely true according to t...@Marshall - that is completely true according to the official doctrine of the Church. I bet even the Pope and Bishop would agree with you. But the lay class, even those who attend weekly, see things differently, and while priests encourage people to attend regularly, I've yet to meet the priest who categorizes individuals as "okay, good, and better" Catholics. I think mostly it&#Laurahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13370212755653960169noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1780629013428444572.post-5167649750839016072010-05-12T18:24:08.971+01:002010-05-12T18:24:08.971+01:00Stasa, thank you for writing this. It is excellen...Stasa, thank you for writing this. It is excellent.<br><br>However, I find that I am very confused by the responses to it. I feel I must be missing something. Your post seems very clear to me. You are asking that Pagans as a group and more importantly, as individuals be granted the courtesy of defining our own religious terms, experiences and affiliations without having to put up with those Hysteryhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02044678910937934731noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1780629013428444572.post-24692502812422644902010-05-12T18:43:14.843+01:002010-05-12T18:43:14.843+01:00Laura - yeah, but I assume that's sort of what...Laura - yeah, but I assume that's sort of what Marshall is getting at. My stereotype of both Catholics and Pagans is that ritual is an important part of their faith. ie: if you're really DOING Catholicism, you engage in ritual. If you intentionally forgo ritual, you may well still be a christian, but in all honesty you should probably modify the "catholic" in your descriptionearthfreak (Pam)http://www.blogger.com/profile/01439718927967964939noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1780629013428444572.post-57577504823960323092010-05-12T21:23:17.627+01:002010-05-12T21:23:17.627+01:00I don't have time right this moment to post as...I don't have time right this moment to post as much of an in-depth comment as I would like, but let me share this: <br><br>Catholicism is one branch of Christianity. I think we all agree that someone doesn't have to use, say, the Catholic tool of the rosary as a spiritual practice in order to be either Christian or Catholic. We certainly all seem to agree that not all Christians use staśahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05201286586062722169noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1780629013428444572.post-69579960608039076072010-05-13T00:12:06.651+01:002010-05-13T00:12:06.651+01:00Wow. This is a bit like being invisible and inaud...Wow. This is a bit like being invisible and inaudible. <br><br>I know I've said this here and other places like a bazillion times but...I am a Pagan. I do not do ritual. I write a blog about being a Quaker Pagan with a strong tendency to non-theism. I am therefore living evidence that not all Pagans are ritualistic.<br><br>One of the reasons people don't know as much about Pagans whoHysteryhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02044678910937934731noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1780629013428444572.post-8057984800410900612010-05-13T02:02:48.273+01:002010-05-13T02:02:48.273+01:00This really became a complex conversation! I assum...This really became a complex conversation! I assumed that most branches of Paganism included ritual, but never thought of it being a necessary part of all Paganism.<br><br>In my experience, very few people other than Pagans or those close to them or studying them, know much about actual Paganism. Of course, many people are ignorant of large stretches of Christianity, Judaism, Islam and more Bethhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05417948380330959151noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1780629013428444572.post-72444813297347157812010-05-13T02:35:45.499+01:002010-05-13T02:35:45.499+01:00As someone who has generally identified herself as...As someone who has generally identified herself as pagan but is now exploring being part of a quaker community, I find this topic fascinating. I personally am drawn to ritual as a spiritual tool but understand why quakers rejected it and are still wary of it today. I read a great article recently that deals a little with the usefulness and uselessness of ritual. It can be read here:<br>http://Alysshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04820396354932192545noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1780629013428444572.post-32944884816390159092010-05-13T17:47:33.071+01:002010-05-13T17:47:33.071+01:00Hystery: I believe that both you and Stasa are unu...Hystery: I believe that both you and Stasa are unusual as Pagans. (So am I--though my past experience may be a bit more normative than yours.) <br><br>I for one am not offended if non-Pagans think of ritual when they think of Paganism, because I think that's an accurate first impression. Just as most people who identify as Christian believe in the divinity of Christ and the importance of theCat C-Bhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10002916434676859262noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1780629013428444572.post-50866858401151991632010-05-13T19:56:50.943+01:002010-05-13T19:56:50.943+01:00Cat,You are very likely right that we three aren&#...Cat,<br>You are very likely right that we three aren't exactly typical. I don't know for sure because I'm very hesitant about generalizing others' experiences given my lack of deep engagement in the broader practicing Pagan community.<br><br>I'm not so much offended if people have a mistaken belief about me and are open to my corrections. I'm offended when they persist Hysteryhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02044678910937934731noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1780629013428444572.post-4508509712202274962010-05-13T20:50:55.095+01:002010-05-13T20:50:55.095+01:00Friend Hystery speaks my mind. Several times. Th...Friend Hystery speaks my mind. Several times. Thank you for sharing your measure of the Light.staśahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05201286586062722169noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1780629013428444572.post-1008681278472258282010-05-13T21:00:51.351+01:002010-05-13T21:00:51.351+01:00Since so many folks are missing the point, I will ...Since so many folks are missing the point, I will try two things here: <br><br>1) You are a lesbian. Everybody knows lesbians wear Birkenstock sandals. Birkenstock sandals are not safe for certain kinds of work, such as doctor, nurse, disaster relief, or heavy equipment. Therefore you, as a lesbian, are barred from employment as a doctor, nurse, disaster relief worker, or heavy equipment staśahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05201286586062722169noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1780629013428444572.post-32071596549978556522010-05-14T01:59:17.634+01:002010-05-14T01:59:17.634+01:00Mary Ellen, about "the problem some quakes ha...Mary Ellen, about "the problem some quakes have with ritual," and dead ritual... Marshall and some other folks and I were talking about this on Facebook, and there are a couple of issues here (which I hope to write a separate post about). One is, What do we mean by ritual? Most unprogrammed Friends, I would say, equate <i>all</i> ritual with empty ritual. Some of our Quaker ancestorsstaśahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05201286586062722169noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1780629013428444572.post-51315571959822665852010-05-14T02:05:24.556+01:002010-05-14T02:05:24.556+01:00Pam, if I'm too upset about this to make sense...Pam, if I'm too upset about this to make sense right now, maybe you're too married to your privilege to make sense of it right now? ;-) (I am mostly joking, which may not come across well in cyberspace.) Prejudice <i>always</i> upsets me. <br><br>Pam, part of my point in the juxtaposition of animal sacrifice and ritual is that a stereotype doesn't have to be obviously negative to staśahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05201286586062722169noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1780629013428444572.post-3344153577090662262010-05-14T02:13:31.163+01:002010-05-14T02:13:31.163+01:00Marshall, you wrote, "...the very next senten...Marshall, you wrote, <i>"...the very next sentence you wrote, after the one I quoted in my previous comment: “I told her that Beltane with Roses, Too! is not a Pagan Quaker ritual, but a Pagan ritual with Quaker and lots of other influences.” I think that sentence speaks for itself. Don’t you?</i><br><br>For itself, yes. For all Pagans, no. But if you think it demonstrates a reasonable staśahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05201286586062722169noreply@blogger.com